Dane - I hope my statements come across as benignly as yours do. They're intended to. It's a shame you tire of these discussions; but I need to address two points.

At the very base of the natural order is this: women birth children and are most qualified to care for them (they have the natural milk, hips, multitask better,...). Since she's strapped with a child for a year at a time, that leaves the man to support and lead the family. We've interrupted the natural order by artificial means: fake milk, baby bottles, nannies, daycare centers, birth control,...

So I'm not really fighting the natural order by suggesting that men and women naturally have separate roles, I'm embracing it wholeheartedly.

Secondly, blind faith implies no testing has been done. The 1st time one sits in a chair, he exercises blind faith; but after he tests it, his faith in the chair isn't blind. It's still faith, because it's possible the chair won't support him in the future.

So my faith isn't blind. I've seen that not murdering is better than murdering, not lying is better than lying, not stealing is better than stealing, not having premarital sex is better than premarital sex, and men leading their family is better than men not leading their family.

My faith and available knowledge aren't mutually exclusive. Available knowledge supports my previous statements which are part of my faith. Available knowledge tells us that condoning premarital sex has led to astronomical teen pregnancies, unwed mothers, and undesired abortions (the morality of abortions aside, I don't think anyone would DESIRE to have one).

Regardless of what one believes, faith is required. If one's beliefs are based on available knowledge, it's still faith; because available knowledge changes constantly, and so must his beliefs.

Solomon,

Your list of 5-now-4 starts with the statement “Other reasons men should lead:” which is a pretty strong indicator that we should be looking for the supporting premises to the conclusion that men should lead. For something to be considered a logical fallacy it can either have a conclusion drawn from premises which are false, or it can have premises which are possibly true, but do not support the conclusion. Your list of 5-now-4 falls in the second category.

When I suggest that your supporting premises could effectively support the exact opposite conclusion my intention is to show, regardless of the validity of your arguments, the conclusion you come to can not be reached from the arguments you give. I listed alternative assumptions made from your arguments which would lead to the opposite conclusion to show this. Your arguments only support the idea that men might be able to make decisions faster which is what my next sentence addressed, stating that is not the ultimate goal in the decision making process, and suggesting that its not a sign of a good leader.

Don’t take this personally, but I tire of these discussions rapidly. You are arguing based on blind faith, I am arguing based on available knowledge. By definition, these two approaches are mutually exclusive. Because a premise based on faith alone can never be proven, it can never support a logical argument. Understand I am not trying to suggest that you should not hold these beliefs, I am just saying that they do not make a valid argument from a logical standpoint, and quite ironically, can only really be presented as an emotional plea to accept the generalizations on which they are based.

My belief is that these generalizations hurt people, they attempt to create a system of control, of rules, that allow one group to impose its will on another, all while suggesting its an obvious natural order. I do not agree that there is anything natural about it, the idea we can classify anyone based on gender, race, religion, or any other grouping and predict their behavior or ability is insulting. This type of classification is very often attempted by people who fear or question their own ability to keep others from questioning their actions, or worse, actually outperforming them.

Dane

Er Kat, not quite all...

....
Solomon 5:2 I was asleep but my mind1 was dreaming.2Listen!3 My lover4 is knocking5 at the door!6

5:3 "I have already taken off my robe--must I put it on again?I have already washed my feet--must I soil them again?"

5:4 My lover thrust his hand7 through8 the hole,9and my feelings10 were stirred11 for him.
....
double entendre all the way. The 'hand' from Hebrew - a pillar as in phallic.
....
Solomon 8:8 We have a little sister,and as yet she has no breasts.What shall we do for our sister on the day when she is spoken for?27

8:9 If she is a wall,28we will build on her a battlement29 of silver;but if she is a door,we will barricade30 her with boards31 of cedar.32

8:10 I was a wall,and my breasts were like fortress towers.33Then I found favor34 in his eyes.35

....

couldn't resist:-)

NT vs OT. They're different dispensations. I'll go deeper Monday or another time. Theologically speaking, there have been 4 dispensations, and each one shows man's inability to work his own way to heaven. We need God's help.

I thouroughly enjoy conversing with you guys and look forward to your responses Monday.

You sure do use big words and fancy phrases Dane:)

Regarding my 5 (really 4) reasons men should lead you said, "Your list has no basis in logic, it is simply a statement of beliefs...". Which of my statements was wrong? Just because I didn't quote scientific studies doesn't mean it's wrong. One can have beliefs that are factual, right? If I say 5+4=9 but don't give supporting data, is it just a belief or is it a fact?

And not long before that you even stated, "As for your other 5 reasons, I would make the argument that it is instead a list of why women should lead." You initially agreed with my assessments.

I don't equate sensitivity with weakness. Sensitivity is a glorious trait for men to have, but not at the expense of good, strong, logical leadership. Are the two mutually exclusive? No. Can a large amount of one subvert the other? Yes. Too much sensitivity can prevent one from being a good, strong, logical leader. And too much logic can prevent one from being sensitive.

I really do enjoy discussing these things and look forward to more amicable conversations. Unfortunately, I'll be incommunicado between now and Monday. I'll check back then.

Dane just knocked me off my feet with his viewpoint. Well done, my dear.

Solomon-so, what...the New Testament is like Old Testament version 1.0.1?

From some psych class or another, the point was made about how men and women think differently. The gist of it was that when faced with a problem, men will tend to consider the solutions as a finite set based on the facts at hand, and want to make a decision, even if none of the solutions are ideal. Women tend to not see a finite set of solutions and are more willing to consider that the best solution is still unknown. To put it in cliché, "He who hesitates is lost" vs. "look before you leap".

Given that both these approaches have their relative merit, neither being clearly better or worse, I find it embarrassing, as a male, that men become so threatened by someone questioning their decisions that they include words like subjugate, and obey in an oath that ideally should define an equal partnership. Personally I would much rather be with someone who challenges me and makes me grow as a person than to be with someone who just submits to my will.

Solomon, I am not going to touch your first 7 reasons for men being leaders, I think people will take it, and its source for what its worth to them. As for your other 5 reasons, I would make the argument that it is instead a list of why women should lead. They are more willing to accept that their first choice might have been wrong, more inclined to consider the ramifications of their decision, more able to get a feeling for the big picture, etc. The real goal in making a decision is to make the right decision, not to just decide. Your list has no basis in logic, it is simply a statement of beliefs, and is a decent example of fallacy when viewed logically. These beliefs have been propagated through history to protect a status quo that looks at ignorance as a weakness, instead of the first step on the road to knowledge. I find this most disappointing because it stunts the growth of the human race as a whole

Your comments on sensitivity suggest that it is a synonym for weakness. If we take sensitivity to mean being aware, and concerned for the emotional effects your actions have on others, and understanding that their feelings effect their interaction with you, I completely miss the connection that has with “rugged manhood”. Insensitivity is not a sign of strength, it’s a sign of ignorance, and immaturity. The inability to express your feelings, and a conscious lack of concern for the feelings of others is nothing to be proud of, no, instead it’s a weakness of the highest order.

To me, the whole idea of submission is a roadblock to us being better, stronger, and healthier people. Yes, the world is a scary place if we must venture out knowing that no one is better or worse than we are, they are simply our equals. It takes away all the excuses and forces us to be responsible for who we are. Alas, if you say I must submit to someone…

… ah, Helen, could you talk more about the dominatrix and the monkey? =)

Dane

Good one Helen. I laughed out loud.

My sister-in-laws are pretty attractive. I might go for that law:) And, who knows, maybe burlap pants are going to make a comeback (were they ever in style?) :)

Knowing as much as you do about the Bible (I'm not being facetious), you probably know that the New Testament supercedes the Old Testament. Rom 14:1-6, Col 2:13-18, I Pet 2:15, and much of the Gospels show a new freedom given to Christians that the Israelites didn't have; so, no, we're not bound to all the OT laws. I am curious (as I'm sure you are) why Jewish people don't still stick to those rules.

My reason for referencing the OT regarding men and women's relationships is that it's been that way since the beginning. It was that way in the OT, the NT, and nearly every culture since then up until 30 years ago; and according to the Bible, that's how it was intended to be for all time. That's how men and women work best together.

A car can be used in ways the manufacturer advises against and still get the job done, but not as efficiently and potentially won't last as long. I think a marriage is the same. Sticking to the manufacturer's guidelines provides the best, most efficient, and effective marriage possible.

THAT'S why I see so many singular shoes lying around...

hehe...i think it's a mistake to take the bible literally...

but if you really think god made sure he got His laws down correctly, then you must believe this also:

You may own slaves, as long as they are from neighboring nations (Leviticus 25:44)

Farmers can't plant soybeans and corn in the same field, and can't wear pants made of a cotton/polyester blend (19:19). If they do, the whole town is supposed to gather and stone them to death (24:10-16)

If a married man dies without children, his brother must marry the widow. If the brother refuses to marry the widow, or deliberately does not give her children, he shall pay a fine of one shoe and be otherwise punished in a manner to be determined by law. (Gen 38:6-10; Deut 25:5-10)

and i'm done...sorry helen, i couldn't resist.

Most of my non-Biblical points had "generally" in them. There are some women (i.e. Margaret Thatcher and Helen) that are exceptions:)

I believe modern day culture is emasculating men by making them be so sensitive and cry all the time? Could that be why the men you know can't handle a severed finger or filing forms? And in your "The Perfect Man" entry, all but one of the qualities you listed were sensitive related.

Unfortunately the cultural pendulum for manhood has swung from the "strong, silent, and insensitive" side to the "sissy" side. Men need to have a balance of rugged manhood and sensitive feelings. But if either of those qualities needs to take a back seat, it's the sensitive ones.

Kat - Don't presume that a God who is all powerful wouldn't be able to ensure His rules get written down correctly...even by men:)

What Larry and Kat said.

And one thing, Solomon dearie-I totally disagree that men can handle stressful decision making easier. I stress out trying to decide what restaurant to eat at, but give me the red button with the nuclear launch capability, and my head is perfectly clear. Same thing with a real crisis-make me handle the UK government and I stress out. Cut off a finger and I can handle the sitch just fine. Meanwhile the men I know all flip out at form-filling, AND they all flip out when someone cuts a finger off.

It's a matter of perception, dearest.

---
Unfortunately the English translations miss the nuances of the Greek word from which some translations derive 'submit'.
---

Me.. I'm not so sure the 'miss' was a mistake at all..

dear solomon,

the bible was written by men.

Glad its all coming together for you. Even being a bloke, reading of your relationship with Kim makes me wish I'd known him, sound like real man.

Other Biblical reasons for women submitting to men:
1) When God made Eve, she was to be a "helpmate"
2) Adam got to name her...in those days naming something denoted authority over it
3) Adam was made first...in those days birth order denoted authority
4) When Eve ate the forbidden fruit then Adam did, God spoke with Adam...if a problem occurs in my department, the owner of the company goes to the one in charge, my manager, not to me
5) It's the rare exception, not the rule, that women were leaders in the Bible
6) The Apostle Paul said he didn't permit a woman to have authority over a man, and finally
7) Paul said women should submit to men.

Other reasons men should lead:
1) Women generally change their mind more than men (it's their prerogative)
2) Women are generally more emotional than men which makes decision making tougher
3) Men are generally more logical (don't deny it...and I did say generally not always)
4) Men generally have a greater ability to compartmentalize which makes stressful decision making easier
5) Men are smarter (just kidding :)

To be the sacrificial, servant leader of my family means I put their needs and desires ahead of my own and lead according to what's healthiest for our family (NOT according to what makes Solomon the happiest).

H,
Make no mistake, I stop by every day to look in on you. Even if I were to miss a day or two you are still on my mind and in my heart.

Can't help but laugh H, because I always picture the 'naught boy' scenes in The Man Who Knew Too Little Especially when Joanne Whalley's character Lori pauses on her travels thru the dominatrix's hotel room to give a little instructive advice cracks me up every time.

I don't have much to add; just sharing my take on things.

Nice post. I must admit that I am glad I am a man but I do appreciate what women wear and all the effort that goes into 'the competition'. You catching Kim sleeping in his car for you says it all.

I have no problems with "submitting" sometimes to my SO. Usually, when I am being a twit and am totally wrong, I'll just drop the issue. That to me is submitting. However, I expect the same of him...and I get it.

Also, most people won't hate an American just because they were born in the states, most hate Americans who are rude, obnoxious, and think they are better than everyone else. Sometimes you have to prove yourself to people.

I never did get why being a cowboy was bad.
Of course, my vision of a cowboy as a tenderhearted man with callouses on his hands who can save a baby calf and love his family just as fiercely as he works is probably different from the vision most have of movie cowboys...

Discuss away, Roger and Solomon. I am curious to see where this goes, too (like Angel), since the only thing I can think of when I hear the word "submit" is a dominatrix spanking the monkey out of a middle-aged business man.

Paul-you've been missed, man.

It makes me happy when you share these wonderful memories. I'm so glad that things are falling into place for you.

Angel - As I said, we all submit to someone, so in some respects, yes, I already do that. I submit to my manager's will 40+ hours a week, and he takes care of me (raises, stress level, hours worked,...); so I choose my workplace wisely. If my beliefs were such that women were to be the leader in a marriage, yes, I would gladly do it...and I would choose my wife very, VERY carefully.

Roger - There's far more to it than that one passage. As you pointed out Miss Helen would prefer we not discuss that here, so we can direct e-mail if you want.

Our culture has such a negative view on submitting, and we shouldn't.

what a sweet gesture to bring you a dress in a pizza box. so cute.

i'm very happy for ya helen. *much love*

May I weigh in?

From the Christian NT many people get it wrong because they do not study the Greek. From the passage that people talk about this, allow me to paraphrase;

Men, love your wives as if she were your own body. [Ahem, we all know how us men are about our own bodies:-). Does this bring any of our favorite topics to mind?]

Women, give your hearts to your husbands and quit pining after Elvis or whoever you secretly still have emotional attachments to; it ain't gonna happen.

Unfortunately the English translations miss the nuances of the Greek word from which some translations derive 'submit'.

This takes into account the differences between men and women but I can't get the words together in a way that I won't get flamed:-) But if a couple achieves both of these suggestions for having a good relationship, their well on their way to building and enjoying it. It is sorta like dancing; a lead who is interested in having his partner enjoy herself and a responsive partner who makes it all worth it. One without the other and they don't dance.

At last, everything is in place, yay for life number six!!

I am hopeing some of this will rub off on me too, i have just found out i have a second interview in so many weeks :)

I hope while you are packing at getting ready you will have time for a celebratory beer or too :)

Abs x

Hey Solomon--would you be happy to turn that around? So,:

"Submitting is only offensive if the one to whom you submit is a "loser". Choose a good wife, and submitting is a non-issue; because what you get in return for submitting is a wife who loves you more than herself and has your best interest at heart."

If not, why not?

H,
The little windows into your past never cease to touch and amaze me.

I am so happy that all the paperwork is behind you. Pack up what is still dear to you and make sure you leave all your worries and regrets behind.

Safe journey, little flame.

What a wonderful story! Sounds like Kim was a keeper indeed. Thanks for sharing that little bit of him with us.

I could read your stories all day. It's amazing how you make me feel like I'm right there with you. Like I'm living the story myself. Congrats again, I've said it before. I just knew things would work out. They just had to, you're not destined for a bad ending...

Anything two headed is a monstrosity. That includes a marriage. The word "subjugate" aside, what's wrong with submitting? Everyone submits to someone: an employee to a boss, a citizen to their President/King/whatever, an athlete to a coach,... Submit and inferior are NOT synonymous.

Submitting is only offensive if the one to whom you submit is a "loser". Choose a good husband, and submitting is a non-issue; because what you get in return for submitting is a husband who loves you more than himself and has your best interest at heart.

A husband is called to be the sacrificial, servant leader not someone who says, "Get me my slippers." What about that kind of selfless love is undesirable?

I just want you to know that I'm doing the happy dance for you! 2 days to go, and don't stress too much, ok?

I can't believe that no-one has said it yet ... so I get to be the first --

We *TOLD* you so ... see, no worries, you got your visa, new life ready to go, hopefully some new clothes and strappy shoes ... and don't forget the most important things -- all the little people who care about you around the world. We've been rooting for you, and we've been sending out good energy enough to light up a small third-world nation, and your worries about last minute visa snags turned out to be unfounded.

2 days to go, and life is looking good for Helen.

We'll keep the good vibes coming, there's still need to bolster you, and keep you wrapped in warmth and safety.

Be well, be very well indeed.

Tioraidh!

Ky

Rob, Curator and Jim-good to know that others have been wanting to snap a pew in half, too. Not that I am condemning those types of ceremonies-to each their own-I just felt like I had stepped back about 200 years or so.

Miguel and Gudy-I have had to be on the defense, actually. And a few times, I was glad I said I had come from Sweden, since the people I was around went on a tear about the U.S. But people are people-I have known some wonderful Americans, and some real asses. Same with Sweden-I've met good and bad. Same with Japanese. Same with Germans. I think people are just people-once we assign them to a group, we then condemn the whole group, which isn't fair. But I do-and have been-judged pretty harshly over here from time to time, being an American.

Meg-I think I know what you mean. It's like that saying-Better to have loved and lost than never loved at all. Of course, I think that saying is absolute horseshit, since I miss him all the time and know that I will never see him again, ever. But that's me:) Now get some sleep!

Nisi and Plumpernickel-thanks. If I ever meet another Kim, I will send him your way...

Yay to the passport!

Subjugate?! I mean, love slaves may be a sweet idea in theory, but who in his right mind wants a woman to subjugate her wishes to those of her husband? To each their own, I guess.

Miguel, most Europeans I know differentiate between the government of the US, which is almost universally reviled for its actions and words in the past few years, and american people, especially when taken individually. I sure hope Helen's experiences match mine in that respect.

1. Woooo, survived the hurdles. I can breathe once more whilst reading this page.
2. I just sat staring at the word 'breathe' and pondering its existence. Then I spelt 'existence' wrong, and wrote 'existance'. I must be really tired. I'll make this comment short.
3. The Kims of the world are often under-valued. It makes me smile to see that you acknowledge how amazing he was all the time. He sounds/reads like a hard act to follow. I don't know though, when people say things like "you're lucky you got to experience him, even if it was unfortunately short" [direct quote from earlier today. hehe.] I know, logically, it's a true statement. I still find myself ..not defensive, but.. something. Yes, I find myself something. This is going nowhere, so on to the next point we shall go!
4. Mojosity. Ahahaha. The brilliance of it all.

I attended a friend's wedding some years ago that had the bride vowing to "love, honor, and obey" and also to "give" herself to the groom. Eyes rolled.

The minister later chastised those of us whose eyes rolled saying, "I know some of you don't think women should give themselves to their men but you're wrong.". My wife still has the holes in her tongue and I know that minister will never forget her icy stare. I surely haven't.

Great story. I´m always very carefull about commenting or judging others, but what you told does make you think. But if people make free decisions about how to lead theyr lives... A word of advice: as far as I can tell, americans aren´t very well considered in Europe, probably England being in some ways an exception. The "Bush" sindrome. But you are one of the reasons I have faith in americans. Miguel.

I see that the Rolos I sacrificed yesterday were as effective as the M&Ms normally are. I was just a tad worried that the caramel might affect the mojosity of the candy. Know what I mean?

I have an aunt that went Jehovah after her divorce many a year ago and took her three kids with her. My cousin's wedding 5 years ago gave me a shock similar to the one you had. It was un.be.fucking.lieveable.

It took me quite a while to reconcile that ceremony with the people I knew. I went up to my cousin at the reception and asked him if all of that was for real. He seemed a bit embarassed but said yes, that was what they believed. I laughed it off, saying something like I needed to start dating Jehovah's Wintesses, but that was a very surreal and disturbing event.

"subjugate"

Watching Super Bowl commercials amongst friends reminded me of how modern-day relationships are such power plays. I regularly heard comments of the like:

"That sounds like me and my [Significant Other]."

Saying nothing as usual, my wandering eyes perused couple NINteractions from afar. There were no surprises, yet I do know a few couples who would use a pizza box in the same manner.

They disprove all negative observations.

I love your stories Helen! Especially about Kim, you are indeed lucky to have experienced a relationship like that, but what's great is that you know that! Btw. I am so excited/happy for you & your big move!

Thats beautiful. You are lucky to have been loved and known sensitive men, most of who avoid me like the plague. :)

Simon darling-I was just commenting on your site when your comment popped up.

Actually, he did keep the white plastic thingy and had it holding the top of the box off the dress. Strange, I had forgotten that!

Great story. Kim sounds like a special guy - buying a dress for his girlfriend like that. Was it hot in the box? Did it have mozerella sticking to it? Did it have that white thing in the middle to keep the lid off the dress?