Everyday Stranger

Solomon, I totally disagree. Maybe Helen's comment box isn't the best place to debate this, but the "loving" criticism you're proscribing is harmful, as is the enforcement of silly commands. That is exactly the way I was raised, and I feel it raised me to be passive-agressive, resentful of authority, and oversensitive to truly constructive criticism in any setting (a real hindrance in work environments!).

There is just no reason to tell a child she's fat, or overweight, or selfish, or lazy, etc. She's a child. Her view of her parent is as an infallible authority - she doesn't have the adult ability to receive the label "selfish" as an objective descriptor - she internalizes that as her inherent identity.

I really don't see why "not sharing toys is a selfish thing to do" (though I'd really prefer a more positive approach than that) or "Doritos are not very good for you, but apples will make you grow up strong" are insufficient.

Is "tubby" ok? I'm just kidding:)

I agree we shouldn't say "You're fat" to a child (or adult for that matter), but we need to say SOMETHING. If I take away the junk food and discuss proper nutrition with my overweight child, she's going to ask why. At that point I'd gently point out that she's overweight and it's not healthy.

That's what I mean by telling kids when they're selfish or fat. Sometimes conciseness hinders clarity (that's why we get more than one comment per day:). What I encourage in others and try to do myself (including in my comments on your blog) is gently speak the truth with love. It may not always come across that way, but rest assured that's how it's intended.

It is NOT ok to call your child fat, Solomon.

That is simply not acceptable to me. You can discuss healthy eating habits, take away the junk food, but call a child fat? You'll have to answer to me.

And if you call a child fat? You wind up with a screwed up adult.

Just like me.

The goal between 2 people who love each other should be to resolve the conflict not win the battle. Someone could be dead wrong, but if they're clever enough still win the argument. That's unhealthy and unhelpful.

Children and adults must learn to obey even silly commands. My child's future boss may insist she never wear yellow (that's silly!!). If she doesn't learn to appease silly requests at home, she'll likely not do it elsewhere and suffer for it (losing a job, a spouse, an opportunity,...) I'm not saying people should appease every silly request, but sometimes it's the best way.

Don't be too hard on parents for enforcing silly rules. Our daughters aren't allowed to sing at the table. If they sing, they don't eat...for hours. Not allowing them to sing eliminates other issues: enough time for baths and homework, cold food, and going to bed hungry. Often there are good reasons for silly rules, even if you don't know what they are.

Sometimes children need to be told they're selfish or fat for their own good. To tell them they're selfish or fat to win an argument is wrong (I believe this is what Passenger is saying). To tell them they're selfish or fat to help them CHANGE is loving (This is what I'M saying). Selfish people have a hard time keeping friends and obese people can have serious health issues. I don't want my daughters to have either one of those problems, so I lovingly correct them when they act selfishly or eat like a pig.

"Mine? Mine? Mine. Mine! Mine!! Mine!! Mine!! Mine!!"

Oh no, thanks Onyx. Now I have those hilariously greedy gulls in my head for the rest of the day. This is far far worse than those "Badger badger badger badger Badger badger badger badger muuuushroooms!"

*hugs*

I can relate to both sides of the child being called selfish, as I was called that as a child for doing things like that, and I have seen my daughter act that way. The difference is that I have never called my daughter selfish for being worried she will miss a TV show, or missing a certain time to play outside with a friend, or anything like that. It's not selfish at all - kids see little things as very important and there is nothing wrong with that. I can say positively with complete certainty, that there was nothing selfish about your childhood comment at all.

As far as now, being called selfish is an incredibly hurtful comment. I agree with bigdocmcd - does Mr. Y know how painful the word is to you? Setting that word at off limits in arguments would be very healthy for you, and might keep the water from getting so muddied emotionally for you.

I do have one suggestion for blocking out the inner seagulls - ever seen Finding Nemo? Just think about how they are pesky ravenous bird, and their cries really literally saying "Mine? Mine? Mine? Mine MINE MINE MINE MINE!!!!!"

Trust me, it's about impossible to hear them any other way after that ;) (and to get rid of those pesky "mine"s lol

P.S. I loved the smurfs :) right now my daughter is obsessed (literally - doesn't want to miss even ones she's see several times) with Full House. Doesn't matter that the twins are now almost three times her age :)

AAARRRGGG! You're missing my point! Whether or not you're "Selfish" had or has nothing to do with the discussion/argument/knife fight, etc going on at time! What it is, is an attempt to distract or guilt trip one's "opponent" from the real issue, which is to "win" the "battle". In fact it is motivated by pure "selfishness". There's nothing to be hemmed and hawed about, the remark shoold be cast aside. It's not part of the discussion. How many Socratic Debates end with "You're Selfish!"?

What would be the difference between accusing someone of being "selfish" and telling the other person something like "You're Fat!" if you know that the other person is sensitive about his or her weight. (The "overweight" condition doesn't even have to exist except in the other person's mind).

If you have a written transcript of the arguement and then go back over it and edit out all the shit that has nothing to do with the disagreement, what's left? Then you go over the parts that have been edited out and what do you have? You see the "games" that were played to with the argument.

(Oh and I said 'Short of redecorating the walls...' : )

AAARRRGGG! You're missing my point! Whether or not you're "Selfish" had or has nothing to do with the discussion/argument/knife fight, etc going on at time! What it is, is an attempt to distract or guilt trip one's "opponent" from the real issue, which is to "win" the "battle". In fact it is motivated by pure "selfishness". There's nothing to be hemmed and hawed about, the remark shoold be cast aside. It's not part of the discussion. How many Socratic Debates end with "You're Selfish!"?

What would be the difference between accusing someone of being "selfish" and telling the other person something like "You're Fat!" if you know that the other person is sensitive about his or her weight. (The "overweight" condition doesn't even have to exist except in the other person's mind).

If you have a written transcript of the arguement and then go back over it and edit out all the shit that has nothing to do with the disagreement, what's left? Then you go over the parts that have been edited out and what do you have? You see the "games" that were played to with the argument.

(Oh and I said 'Short of redecorating the walls...' : )

I think I do come across as selfish, sometimes because I just don't think. And it's not because I am evil, just that I am a bit vacant sometimes.

Also, I have an incredible knack for losing track of time and not thinking of all the angles of all the situations-it's weird. I can be clever enough, but lack common sense.

Plus I'm neurotic, as Erin hinted, and it makes things worse:)

Brass-thanks, darling-I am sure we're all pleased to get Luuka flying again! :)

Paul-I hope she's making you very happy, dearest, you deserve it:)

Passenger-very healthy outlook, I am proud of you and the "who cares if she decorates the walls" outlook.

It's so hard to tell someone who has self worth issues to not take it to heart in these situations, but I wish there was some magic way to help you brush it off and not let people's words wound you. I hear these things so many times about myself.. selfish, lazy, and my favorite "You have an excuse for everything, don't you". To which I reply, "No, I have a reason for everything. I don't need to make excuses to you. If calling them excuses makes you feel better..go for it!" It took me a long time to get to the point where I stopped letting people's little digs cut me or bother me. I know my faults, and being selfish or stingy isn't one of them. Lazy? Yeah, I am damn lazy. I just choose not to see it as a fault. You do? Get over it! I hope you can somehow find a way to take these words that cause you pain when you hear them and take away their power to hurt you. Even if 50% of the time someone called you selfish you were actually being a tad selfish, so what! It's not wrong to take care of yourself, stick up for yourself, or demand to be treated well.

Solomon...Actually the 'Really? How so?" Was quotated. I didn't say that and I never would, unless of course I was being sarcastic. No, I'm not in favor of telling a kid or anyone that they're being selfish.

From what I got from Helen's little story, that was a kid being a kid, concerned with missing her cartoon program, which was important to her.

I once got into a shouting match about a kid playing with her food and her mother jumping all over a eight year old kid. My point was that kids do play with their food and short of redecorating the walls I didn't see anything wrong with it. I was presented with the "What if she does it in public?". My reply was "So what?" I was much more concerned with whether or not the girl looked both ways before crossing the street than making a little mountain out of her spuds and using the parsley for trees. (I actually thought it showed a lot of imagination and passively encouraged it)

In addition to the "really. . ." comment, how about this one (which worked for me) - "Well, somebody's got to look out for me, and it's pretty clear it's not YOU at this point! Sorry I'm not better at subjugating my will to yours."

THAT one shut him up pretty quickly. Don't lose the sass, Helen!

Sounds like old Mr. Y is in fact the parent : ) Somehow, he seems to come across as "using" our dear Helen....

Passenger - I think your response of "Really? How so?" is flawless. If they're right, apologize; if not, ignore them. You're right, it forces them to reveal their reasons and possibly their own selfishness.

I couldn't tell if you were for or against telling children they're selfish. There are millions of instances where a child should be told they're selfish and to stop being that way. Any parent who won't correct selfish behavior is doing their child a huge disservice.

And shouldn't we tell our friends and family when we think they're being unreasonably selfish? How else will they know if we don't tell them? How will we know if they don't tell us?

"Selfish" is a vicious attack because there is no adequate response to it. The closest I've ever been able to come up with is "Really? How so?".

THe proper response is "Go fuck yourself...and put the guilt trip where the sun never shines!". The "selfish" comment to a kid is 'way out there and maybe it's time to destroy a pedestal (or two)? In an adult exchange using it is a last ditch attempt to get what one wants, which in and of itself shows "selfishness" or more correctly childish behavior!

Are these the comments wehre we get on the Luuka list? If so, I'd like to host Luuka:

Nicole in New York

We don't generally get angry when things go the way we want, right? If an angry person calls you selfish, ask them why they're angry. Anger is usually rooted in someone not getting what they want (aka selfishness).

99% of people don't need to be told to be selfish; it's innate. The Golden Rule (do to others as you'd have them do to you) is based on selflessness. We all think it's a good rule but then frequently deny it with our selfishness.

The less selfishness the better.

Maybe this is too practical, but my counselor has drilled into me the importance of evaluating reactions to these type of events. So in my head, I complete this worksheet:

1. What am I feeling and how strongly?
2. When did I start to feel this way?
3. What evidence do I have to support this feeling?
4. What evidence do I have to disprove this emotion?
5. Now that I've examined the evidence, do I still feel the same way? How strongly?

Like I said, totally practical, but it works. It's kept me from getting fired at least twice - and kept me from being newly single at least that often!

i think selfishness means that you put yourself above others in a way that *harms* other people... and you do so knowingly. i'm called selfish sometimes and it's just not true. just like you said in your post: we are thoughtless sometimes. yes. we ae self-interested and that's normal and healthy. oh - and sometimes i'm uncompromising, but i'm not being hurtful, so i'm not being selfish. so there. :)

And with that, my grandmother whipped around in the front seat, sour face and angry disposition, and roared in my face "Helen, you are so god damn selfish!"

Oh, oh my. Been there. Heard it. Many, many times. I know exactly what you're talking about and will probably wind up writing you a 30,000 word e-mail just to say so. :)

But right now I've got a nice fattening barbecue lunch with my dad to rush off to and we know I can't be late for that because that would be so selfish of me.

Does Mr. Y know the special hurt this word brings to you? I mean, was he using it despite knowing the extent it would hurt, or is he just unawares.

If he doesn't know, you should be "selfish" and tell him that one is off-limits.

The only real comeback for that is "So what?!!!" I have never understood why that is considered such a bad thing. In fact, I reject the accusation outright. Don't get me wrong, I'm the mother of 3 teenagers. I understand what it means to put others needs ahead of my own. But taking care of number one is NOT a bad thing. If more people did that, the world would be a better place.

I have printed the FedEx label. Now I will go home and get Luuka, put her snuggly in the box, and send her winging away to Robert.

Brass.

So here I am reading your entry and I had to start laughing. I can tell you the same thing happening throughout my life. Being called selfish by people who are...selfish.

To me, if I am what a person would consider selfish, it's because I have a sense of self worth. Everyone looks out for themselves (or should) but there's a difference between watching out for yourself and being selfish.

I have come to a point in my life where I actually get told, by the same people that called me selfish, that I try too hard. Ironic huh? What have I learned from all of this, when people call you selfish, it's because they're upset you're not giving into their selfishness!

Helen, remember...always stick up for Helen regardless of who calls you selfish. I personally have enough faith in Helen to know she will try to truly not be selfish.

Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa.

Due to a penchant for procrastination and all work the end of the ski season brings I have failed to send Luuka. I promise, cross-my-heart-and-hop-to-die, that she will be sent in the next two days.

Brass.

H,

Looking back on my own youth it's amazing how family members can be so hurtful completely by accident while other times it has all the feel of a mob hit!

Nevermind the ghosts, little flame. They don't know you like we do.

On a completely different note, dearest...

I first thought this should be put into an e-mail to you but I think there are others here who can identify with what I'm going to tell you.

I've only been loitering here since early December but feel I owe you a debt of gratitude I can never repay.

I started following you day by day then sucked it up and spent an entire evening going through your archive. Your writing and honesty made me re-evaluate how I perceive people and I'd like to think I see the world now through more compassionate eyes.

About a month ago I met an amazing girl whose story is remarkably similar to yours. Had it not been for you sharing your life so openly with all of us, and in the process teaching me how to recognize the beauty in people that is sometimes buried under a lifetime of hurt, I would have missed out on having such an amazing person in my life.

Thank You for giving so much of yourself to all of us. You have made a profound impact on many more lives than you realize!!

H, I don't know you, I just read your blog; so I'm loathe to criticize. However -

Usually when you repeatedly hear the same complaint from different people in different stages of life, you have to concede that there must be something to it. I myself have learned that, and it's a bitter pill. Maybe you aren't selfish, but something's giving that impression. Maybe being needy comes off as selfish. Maybe the way you phrase things needs to be reconsidered. On the other hand - of course you're selfish. Everyone's selfish at times, it's human nature.

With all that said, I don't believe it's right to call someone selfish (or a bitch, or stupid, etc) in anger, especially not a child. It's more constructive to tell someone, "this thing you're doing right now is selfish."

Helen, I'm afraid that there is an epidemic of 'unselfishness' found in primarily American women. I personally battle this everyday but over the last couple of years, I have been working hard to be extra selfish everyday. I am so tired of having to please everyone else except moi! For my girls sake, I must be selfish and show them how much more fun it is to be selfish so that they will resist the disease.
Next time mr y or anyone calls you selfish...just say smile and say 'thank you!' You will immediately feel better.

hey helen.. have been busy studying... just came here to see how u r doing.. and hey, u r as good as ever!
Take care

I have no words of wisdom i am afraid Helen as i suffer from feeling exactly the same.

Abs x

At this rate I will never get Luuk/ Luuka. Am thinking of an alternate name - Luuklet?

Sorry, but haven't we all spent our entire lives trying to "be loved and approved of by those in (y)our life"? I mean yes, we do some things to please ourselves, and at a certain age we come to understand that if we don't take care of ourselves no one else will, so what is the problem? There is no mystery in this.........you do what you have to do to take care of yourself, you do what you have to do to get the people you love to love you. This is not being selfish, this is survival. You are not pathetic, you are surviving. And the people around you should love you for your having survived as well as you have, that was a cheap shot. You are responsible for you, and your children if you have any, but only until they are of age. You are not responsible for anyone's happiness or survival but your own. Making yourself happy is not selfish unless it is at the expense of someone else. And if it is, it is their responsibility to disengage from you, and vice versa. Were you taking from Mr. Y for yourself? Or was he taking from you and you stopped it? Those are the kind of questions you need to be asking yourself. It is not being selfish when you stop yourself from being used and it makes the other person mad. Try looking at the accusation from that angle.

I used to take every bit of criticism to heart. But as I've matured, I try to listen to criticism, weigh it objectively, and consider the source. If the criticism is accurate, I try to address it appropriately; if it's not, I dismiss it.

While I think that's the right tactic, it's easier said than done sometimes. If you know you're not being selfish, disregard the comment. If you think there might be some truth to it, talk it through with him.

Another Bear MIA....Wonder if he was taken hostage while passing through IRAQ?

Isn´t there a healthy amount of selfish? And couldn´t you use some? I´ve already prepared a bed for Luuka, she better not get lost... Miguel.

I hope this doesn't mean we'll be needing Bear Part III soon. :-(

"Selfish" is a vicious attack because there is no adequate response to it. The closest I've ever been able to come up with is "Really? How so?".

Luuka last seen in posession of Brass. Still no word. I'll try emailling again.